More examples of Christian Bible rationalizations and preaching.
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TOPIC: The Law of God, Jesus fulfilling the Law, a
Christian unable to support his claims.
Here another Christian explains God's Law and Jesus. And once
again, the believer simply twists the scriptures to suit his
needs.
Many topics are covered in this exchange and some of them are
repeats of topics already covered in prior debate excerpts. The
reason for including these topics again is to illustrate the
utterly robotic nature of Christian preaching.
The same spurious claims are made by so many cult members and is
a product of the intensive indoctrination procedures Christianity
uses to train it's members.
Christians think that if something is repeated often enough, it
becomes "fact".
Christian wrote:
The purpose of Jesus' life and work was to fulfill both the Law
(the books of Moses) and the Prophets (other Old Testament
books). He did not destroy the Old Testament.
But that doesn't mean that Christians have to keep all the old
laws. As we know, Jesus' ministry caused many changes in the law
--- changes so dramatic that laws were "set aside" or
declared "obsolete" (Heb. 7:18; 8:13).
Commentary::
How do perfect and eternal laws become obsolete?
Psa 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting
the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the
simple.
Psa 119:160
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy
righteous judgments(laws) endureth for ever.
How did Jesus fulfill the law when he ignored parts of it?
Christian:
Some laws remained the same, some were changed, and others were
"abolished" (Eph. 2:15).
Commentary:
How does an eternal law become abolished?
Christian:
When Jesus said, "I have not come to abolish the Law or the
Prophets," he did not mean that each specific law would stay
exactly the same.
He meant that the purpose and message of the Law and the Prophets
remain exactly the same.
Commentary:
That's not what the text says. The text says nothing about some
laws being canceled and others staying the same.
The text also says nothing about only the "purpose and
message" of the law remaining the same.
The text says the law was to be followed to the letter.
Matt 5:17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I
am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,
till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the
kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the
same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
There is no wiggle room here for assuming, in any way, that the
Law was not to be in full effect.
Christian:
The Law and the Prophets pointed to him and were intended from
the beginning to be fulfilled by him.
Commentary:
Where does the Old Testament Law delivered by Moses from God
mention anything about Jesus?
You don't fulfill a law by ignoring it.
Christian:
Some of the specific laws of the old covenant are still valid,
but many of them were set aside when Jesus came and fulfilled
them by his life, death and resurrection.
Commentary:
Really?
How does an eternal law become "set aside"?
Where exactly in Matt 5:17-19 does Jesus state that only
some laws will still be valid?
He says the exact opposite then ignored his own teaching. Jesus
ignored the food laws, the law regarding work on the Sabbath, and
the law on adultery.
If fulfilling the law is achieved by ignoring the law, then
courts should dismiss cases against people who ignore the law.
Christian:
Matthew 5:17 is not a "proof" of any particular law,
because this verse does not tell us which specific laws are still
valid or which have been changed or set aside.
Commentary:
The proof is provided in Matt 5:18-19.
It directly contradicts your claim that some laws were canceled
and abolished.
It states that:
Matt 5:18-19
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,
till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the
kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the
same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
No laws are set aside or invalid.
Christian:
Old covenant laws (such as the laws of sacrifice) have been set
aside precisely because Jesus has fulfilled them.
Commentary:
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the requirements of a proper sin
sacrifice according to the Mosaic law?
Christian:
He(Jesus) did not come for the purpose of destroying those laws,
but for fulfilling their meaning.
Commentary:
The text does not say Jesus would fulfill their
"meaning" it says he came to fulfill the law itself.
Christian:
However, by fulfilling their meaning, he(Jesus) made it
unnecessary for Christians to keep those laws.
Commentary:
The text says nothing about simply fulfilling a "meaning".
The text says he came to fulfill the law itself. How exactly did
Jesus fulfill laws which he ignored?
Matt 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,
till all be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth have not passed away yet. The law is in full
effect. Eternal laws aren't canceled.
Psa 119:160
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy
righteous judgments(laws) endureth for ever.
Christian:
They(the laws) are unnecessary because they have served their
purpose by pointing to Jesus.
Commentary:
Eternal laws become "unnecessary"???
God certainly didn't think they were unnecessary.
Psa 119:1-4
Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the
law of the LORD.
Blessed are they that keep his testimonies,
and that seek him with the whole heart.
They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Thou(God) hast commanded us to keep thy precepts
diligently.
Have heaven and earth passed away yet?
What do you suppose the words "keep thy precepts(laws)
diligently" mean?
Where exactly does the Old Testament say that the real purpose of
the Mosaic Law was to point to Jesus and that some laws would be
canceled?
Christian:
Jesus is the reality to which they(the laws) could only point.
Now that he has come, they are no longer legally binding.
Commentary:
Where does the Old Testament state that the eternal law wouldn't
be binding after a king Messiah or a character called
"Jesus" appeared?
Christian:
Yet because they(the laws) point to Jesus Christ and show how God
interacted with a group of people at one time and place, the old
covenant laws continue to give us insights into God's will.
Commentary:
Where in the Old Testament does it says that God told Moses that
the laws he gave to Moses were really meant to point to Jesus?
Where does God tell Moses that the laws he gave to Moses were
only temporary?
Christian:
Even the laws of sacrifice are "useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (2 Tim.
3:16).
Commentary:
How was Jesus a proper sin sacrifice according to the Mosaic law?
Since when were humans on the list of clean animals that were to
be used for sacrifice?
In order to fulfill the law on sacrifice, the requirements of the
law should be followed and not ignored or bypassed.
Christian:
Jesus also fulfilled various laws about ritual cleanliness.
Commentary:
Jesus declared all foods clean.
Mark 7:18-19
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do
ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without
entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and
goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Where in the Old Testament does God cancel his requirements as
laid down in Lev 11 as to what foods were clean?
God made it quite clear in Lev 11:44-47 and Lev 20:25-26
that all food are not clean.
How did Jesus fulfill the food laws by ignoring them and telling
others to ignore them?
Christian:
That did not mean that he never became unclean, of course,
because anyone with normal bodily functions would occasionally
become unclean (Deut. 23:10). Jesus also touched dead people,
lepers and other causes of uncleanness. It was not a sin to be
unclean.
Commentary:
It is a sin to eat unclean food however.
Lev 11:42-44
Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all
four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that
creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they
are an abomination.
Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing
that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean
with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify
yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither
shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing
that creepeth upon the earth.
Jesus declared all foods clean in Mark 7:18-19. How did
Jesus fulfill God's law by teaching people to ignore that law?
Christian:
However, Jesus fulfilled the purpose of the purity laws:
He was morally and spiritually pure. He had an internal holiness,
set apart to do the work of God.
Commentary:
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the food laws which God gave when
he ignored them and taught others to ignore them?
Matt 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and
shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in
the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the
same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
How exactly is Jesus pure when he breaks the law and teaches
others to do the same?
Do you fulfill the purpose of a speeding law by ignoring it?
Christian:
Jesus fulfilled the purpose of God's laws.
Commentary:
Jesus fulfilled the purpose of God's law by ignoring it?
Where does the Old Testament state that God's laws weren't really
to be followed but could be ignored?
Christian:
He did not destroy the need for people to obey God, even though
his crucifixion brought a change in some of the details of how
they obey God.
Commentary:
How do you obey God when you ignore his law?
Where in the Old Testament does it say that "some"
of the laws would no longer need to be followed once Jesus
arrived and canceled God's prior instructions?
Christian:
And keep in mind, these Laws were not fully fulfilled until the
time of his death and resurrection.
Commentary:
How did Jesus fully fulfill the requirements for a proper sin
sacrifice according to the Mosaic law?
How did Jesus fully fulfill the food laws by ignoring them?
How did Jesus fully fulfill the no work requirement of the
Sabbath by having his disciples pick grain/corn on the Sabbath?
How did Jesus fully fulfill the law on adultery by letting a
guilty woman off with a warning?
Where does the Old Testament state that some of God's laws would
be canceled once a king Messiah died and was resurrected?
Footnote:
It's not hard to notice, as this particular topic is discussed,
that the Christian simply will not address some of the questions
I previously asked him.
Christian:
The Law is still in place for the Jews and unsaved:
1 Tim.1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but
for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners,
for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of
mothers, for manslayers... "
Commentary:
Moses was a manslayer. He killed an Egyptian with his own hands.
Was the law meant for him?
Where in the Old Testament does God state that his laws don't
have to be followed by men who are already righteous?
Christian:
The Old Testament is not to be thrown out. And the fact that it
and the Jewish people still exist seems to buttress this belief.
We can learn about our saviour by studying the Old Testament
sacrifices and so on.
Jesus fulfilled these foreshadowments.
Commentary:
Jesus stated that he came to fulfill the law itself, not "foreshadowments"
of the law.
Matt 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I
am not come to destroy, but to fulfil(make
full).
How did Jesus fulfill the proper requirements of a sin sacrifice
as detailed by God in the Mosaic law?
Christian:
We don't actually sacrifice animals anymore, but we can study the
Old Testament law and see how it paralles to Christ.
Commentary:
Fulfilling the law requires that Jesus follow the law.
How did Jesus fulfill the requirements to be a proper sin
sacrifice according to the law he said he came to fulfill?
Christian:
He is the once and for all sacrifice so we don't continue to do
it, but the whole premise of Christianity rest on the foundation
of sin and atonement laid down in the Old Testament.
Commentary:
Here is a foundation about sin and atonement from the Old
Testament:
Ezek 18:20-22
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not
bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the
father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the
righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked
shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath
committed, and keep all my statutes, and do
that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live,
he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath
committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him:
in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
According to God's foundational teaching, each will die
for his own sin and will redeem himself by repenting and
following ALL of God's laws.
Where do you see anything about Jesus or a man/god needed to die
as a human sacrifice in order to atone for the sins of others?
Christian:
You can read Isaiah 53 for God's ultimate purpose in laying down
these precepts which still exist and are studied by believers
even now in the 21st century
Commentary:
Isa 53 says nothing about a king Messiah. The suffering
servant is defined as being Israel, not Jesus or even a king
messiah.
A good portion of Isa 53 is written in past tense and
has nothing to do with a future event. Nor does Isa 53
state that God would cancel laws which he declared eternal.
Christian:
Concerning Matthew 5:18-19:
When people say that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament they mean
in that he fulfilled the Messianic Prophecies, the Just, Merciful
character of God and that his ultimate sacrifice and resurrection
fulfilled the promises and foreshadowments found in the Old
Testament.
Brad:
Really? This should be interesting.
When did Jesus sit on the throne of Israel as a proper and valid
king Messiah would have to have done to fulfill prophesy?
Where does the Old Testament state that a king messiah would come
once, be killed, be raised from the dead, and require a second
coming to accomplish what he failed to do the first time around?
(The Christian never answered these two critical questions. I
wonder why??)
Christian:
A Jewish covenant, the kind in which Abraham was involved with
God in. Included seeing yourself as the same person as the other
and being willing to do whatever the other was willing to do for
you.
God asked Abraham to kill his only Son for him. Abraham was
willing and God stoped him short of doing it. Because of the
covenant God Made with Abraham, he also had to be willing to give
his only Son.
This is an example of foreshadowment.
Commentary:
"Foreshadowment" is an expedient theological
tool which attempts to link specific requirements and events in
the Old Testament to vague, ambiguous actions by Jesus in the New
Testament.
"Foreshadowment" is wishful thinking spelled
with a capital "F".
Christian:
Until it occurred, the readers could only have guessed how this
would come to pass.
Commentary:
Isn't it interesting how God, who spends several chapters in
Exodus giving minute details on how to construct and decorate a
tent, would leave his readers "guessing" as to
what his word really meant about something as important as
eternal salvation.
Christian:
Perhaps a reading of this in conjunction with the 22 Psalm and
Isaiah 53 will help you with the idea of a suffering Messiah in
Jewish prophesy.
Commentary:
Where does Isa 53 even mention a "Messiah"?
The suffering servant is Israel.
Isa 49:3-6
And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel,
in whom I will be glorified.
Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength
for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD,
and my work with my God.
And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his
servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not
gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my
God shall be my strength.
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my
servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the
preserved of Israel: I will also give thee(Israel, not
Jesus) for a light to the Gentiles, that thou(Israel,
not Jesus) mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
The righteous of Israel are the light of salvation, not a Messiah
or Jesus.
Footnote:
The discussion churns on as the Christian tap dances around the
Old Testament teachings and basically invents his own version of
the Bible to suit his agenda.
When dealing with these excuse makers, try not to let them get
too far off topic.
Always try to steer back to the very book they claim is God's
word.
Christian:
When issuing a law, the Lord is no idiot.
He is not going to put clauses into his laws... those laws were
to be followed as stated, and they are still meant to be followed
by the unrighteous (who will all fail in it).
Commentary:
A person becomes righteous by following the law. Righteousness in
the Old Testament is defined as following the law. The following
examples clearly illustrate this:
Deut 6:25
And it shall be our righteousness, if we
observe to do all these commandments before
the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Psa 119:39-44
Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments(laws) are
good.
Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy
righteousness.
Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation,
according to thy word.
So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for
I trust in thy word.
And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I
have hoped in thy judgments.
So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
The law is not a curse as Paul proclaimed. Moses stated
clearly that the law was not too difficult to obey and follow:
Deut 30:8-11
And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do
all his commandments which I command thee this day.
And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of
thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy
cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will
again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy
fathers:
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to
keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this
book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy
God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not
hidden from thee, neither is it far off(not too difficult to do).
Even the New Testament recognized that obeying the law was not
beyond the ability of people to perform:
Luke 1:5-6
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain
priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was
of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all
the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
These people(Zechariah and Elizabeth) followed all of God's
commands and laws and were deemed righteous for their actions.
If the laws were to be followed as stated, then Jesus and anyone
wishing to please the Lord should be following them.
Where does the Old Testament state that righteous people don't
have to follow them?
Where does the Old Testament state that people will all fail to
follow his laws? I've just shown otherwise.
Christian:
When issuing his order to Abraham (to kill his own son), the Lord
did not state at the end, "... until I tell you to
stop." The reason, of course, is Abraham had to follow with
all his heart!
This is the same way with the laws of the Old Testament.
Commentary:
Then people are supposed to follow the law.
There are none who are exempt from it's mandates.
Christian:
The New Covenant releases us from the law.
Jer.31:33-34
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of
Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their
inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their
God, and they shall be my people.
This shows how God would reveal Jesus as the bringer of salvation
and escape from the curse of the law.
We are under the New Covenant now.
Commentary:
This states that God will put his law in their hearts.
It says nothing about any laws being canceled or
abolished. A covenant is a contract.
God will reaffirm his existing laws with the people under a new
contract.
Also of interest is that Jer 31:29-30 shows that each man
will die for his own sin.
There is no mention of a man/god who will become a human
sacrifice and atone for the sins of others or that people
will have to believe in a man/god to have their sins forgiven.
Jer 31:29-30
In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a
sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that
eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
In Jer 31:36 God states that only if his decrees, (which
are his laws) vanish from his sight, will the future generations
of Israel cease to be a nation before him.
Jer 31:36
If those ordinances(laws) depart from before me, saith the LORD,
then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation
before me for ever.
I don't see anything in Jer 31 which states that
God's laws would be canceled or put aside in favor of a new
doctrine of atonement.
The laws are eternal just as Psa 119:152,160 declare.
They are reaffirmed under the New Covenant which is simply a new
contract with the people. A new contract is not a new set of laws
and requirements.
Christian:
First, in regards to Jesus ignoring the food laws, the sabbath
and the law on adultery:
Which food laws are you referring too? The Pharisees tried to get
him for "breaking the tradition of the elders" in not
washing his hands before he ate.
Commentary:
Jesus declared all foods clean in Mark 7:14-19. All foods
are not clean according to Lev 11.
Christian:
The second part of that was that Jesus was eating some grain off
of a wheat plant and this broke the Jewish tradition in the
Mishnah, it could hardly be considered harvasting a crop as was
forbidden in Ex34:21.
Jesus went on to tell them that by their legalistic reasoning
even David was a sabbath breaker. Matthew 12:3.
Commentary:
Claiming that David did it too does not excuse the violation of
the law itself.
And Jesus is using a faulty analogy as David didn't pick grain or
watch others do so in his presence on the Sabbath(Mark
2:23-28).
Christian:
Working on the Sabbath? I would like to have a demonstration of
this. Jesus confronted legalism.
Commentary:
No work of any type was to be performed on the Sabbath.
Gathering grain in any quantity was work.
The following verses clearly indicate how holy the Sabbath was
supposed to be.
Exo 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it
is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put
to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall
be cut off from among his people.
Exo 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall
be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever
doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Deut 5:14
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in
it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor
thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine
ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that
is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may
rest as well as thou.
Gathering of food for the Sabbath was supposed to be done on preparation
day, not on the Sabbath.
Exo 16:29
See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he
giveth you on the sixth day(preparation day) the bread of two
days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his
place on the seventh day.
God was so serious about this law that he ordered a man killed
for picking up sticks on the Sabbath(Num 15:32-36).
Picking grain is no less a violation.
Christian:
What crime are you accusing him of? How is this breaking the
Sabbath?
Commentary:
Gathering grain in any quantity was work. No work of any kind was
allowed.
Jesus with his powers could have easily manifested some food
instead of looking for trouble by picking grain on the Sabbath.
Or he could have instructed his disciples to pick grain on
preparation day, eliminating the problem in the first place.
The Pharisees were trying to determine if Jesus was indeed
representing God.
God gave clear instructions about his laws.
Lev 19:37
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my
judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.
God also made it clear that if someone was violating the law
or not abiding by it, the Pharisees were to let them know they
were not following the law.
Lev 19:17
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any
wise rebuke thy neighbour(if he goes
astray), and not suffer sin upon him.
Those who strayed from the law were to be rebuked for doing
so.
The Jews were trying to determine if Jesus really was a teacher
of God's law or a false prophet. The law also states:
Deut 18:20
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in
my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or
that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet
shall die.
Christian:
The Gospels record The Teachers of the Law and the Scribes and
the like, testing Jesus and looking for imperfections with him.
Commentary:
They were testing him to see if he really represented God
and his laws.
Jesus was supposed to be a teacher who represented God's word.
His actions proved otherwise.
Christian:
At the same time on the otherside of the city, another group of
priest were examining the Passover Lamb, to determine rather or
not it had any blimishes. And the of course Jesus and the Lamb
were sacrificed in the same time table. This is what is meant by
a fullfillment of ceramonial law.
Commentary:
Where are humans listed among the clean animals approved for
sacrifice by God?
You've yet to answer that question.
There is no singular Passover lamb. The Passover lambs(plural)
were not even an atonement sacrifice. Jesus was supposed to be a
human sacrifice which atoned for sin wasn't he?
Equating year old lambs which were not even sin sacrifices to
Jesus doesn't fulfill anything. Jesus didn't say he was "sort
of" supposed to fulfill the law, but was to fulfill the
law itself.
What were the requirements for a proper sin sacrifice according
to the law?
Christian:
When Christians talk about Jesus fulfilling the law they are
referring to all of the Ceremonial law and the Messanic
Prophecies.
Commentary:
This indicates that to the Christian mind, any vague or imagined
reference to Jesus is sufficient to establish that a specific law
or prophecy is fulfilled.
Since such wishful thinking is employed in this type of exercise,
any interpretation of scripture is valid once you have
disconnected yourself from the basic requirements.
Under this belief system, God doesn't really mean what he says
but means whatever the reader wants him to be saying.
Final note:
This is what Christianity really boils down to. The Bible means
whatever the Christian wants it to mean.
It's a big stew pot of rationalizations, wishful thinking, mixed
with some nice sounding teachings and perhaps some elements of
truth.
But make no mistake about it, it's not the word of a
"God" but the preferred beliefs of humans, who
are always seeking to make themselves comfortable with the reason
for their very existence.
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